Post - Christopher Philips - Ally User Group

0
Followers

1
Following

8
Spaces

Jun 7, 2021 ·

## Canvas and Alt Text There are currently some significant challenges with Ally when adding alt text to images. This [Guide to Adding Alternative Descriptions for Canvas](https://usergroup.ally.ac/s/resources/?contentId=39538) goes over 5 different ways that alt text can be added to images and then 2 different ways that content can be copied forward. Depending on which method is used to add the alt text to Canvas combined with which method the content is copied/migrated determines whether the alt text carries forward. The Ally recommendation is to “Copy this Course” instead of using the “Import/Export” functionality, however - due to how our courses are setup, that isn’t an option for us and so each semester, all of our alt that that was added through the Canvas Files Tool or through the Ally Course Accessibility Report is gone - and the instructor would have to start again the next semester from scratch. My understanding is that this is because of a limitation from Canvas that does not allow alt text added by Ally to be stored by Canvas unless it is added directly through the rich text editor. I have not seen a similar guide for other LMS’s so I am assuming this is specific to Canvas - if so I would love to put pressure on Canvas to enable this to be able to work and would be grateful for some feedback from Ally on what would be needed to make that happen. I don’t have exact numbers, but before we knew about this limitation we have added alt text to thousands of images through Ally that ended up going to waste and not persisting forward with the course content was imported to the next semester. Ideally this could be fixed so that all of that work could be stored in Canvas, but if not - would it be possible to have a feature flag to turn off the ability for alt text to be added through the files tool or Ally Course Accessibility Report? Or at least a warning that the data entered will not be stored in Canvas - the way the tool is currently built does not give any warning that the work they are doing will not be stored, which I think is generally a safe assumption.

Show previous 1 comments

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Jun 9, 2021

Thanks [Dan Loury](mention:31f5cd86-8d94-43f7-9624-2dae7bd58299 "/u/dloury/") - this great to hear that this is on your road map. At least at USU - “problematic in some scenarios” is pretty much “problematic in all scenarios except one”. \ \ Is there a possibility that you could share more about the limitations fo Canvas that don’t allow it to function the way it does in Blackboard/Moodle/Desire2Learn? Many of us in the community have relationships with Canvas that we could you to create a feature request or otherwise advocate for the functionality that is needed that would allow Ally to be able to publish/store alt text added through Ally in Canvas.

- Permalink

Krista Greear · Jun 11, 2021

[Christopher Philips](mention:4cec3b4c-3891-4869-acb5-67c171723491 "/u/cphilips/") Re: *Is there a possibility that you could share more about the limitations fo Canvas that don’t allow it to function the way it does in Blackboard/Moodle/Desire2Learn?*\ \ From what I know, Canvas doesn’t natively support alt text in the Files area. If they were to start supporting alt text in the Files area, we wouldn’t need the workaround Ally created. I know some schools in Unizen have said they were going to bring this issue back to Instructure, but the more voices, the better!\ \ Our Ally Devs have filed a ticket with our Canvas points of contact, and filed a formal request. I personally have been in contact with Dustin Shulkin, Partner Ecosystem, Sr. Manager at Instructure. As of May 20th, Dustin’s response was: \ \ *Thank you for submitting the ticket! The feature is not currently on our roadmap. Working in conjunction with our CSM colleagues, we are to determine if/when this feature might be added. Your ticket, the feature suggestions on our Ideas page, and tickets from mutual customers are helpful in this exploration.\ \ *Adding your comments to the following threads is also an action you can consider!\ \ [https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Idea-Conversations/Default-Alt-Text-on-Uploaded-Images/idi-p/330067](https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Idea-Conversations/Default-Alt-Text-on-Uploaded-Images/idi-p/330067) [https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Idea-Conversations/Add-alt-text-at-the-file-level/idi-p/414353](https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Idea-Conversations/Add-alt-text-at-the-file-level/idi-p/414353)

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Jun 11, 2021

Thank you [Krista Greear](mention:6db744af-772a-4731-9ed5-6f1ba2d84f2b "/u/greeark%40uw.edu/") , this is super helpful background - much appreciated. For the other LMS systems is the way that is works that you can add alt text to an images (in a files area or equivalent) and then that alt text will work wherever the image is used?

- Permalink

Krista Greear · Jun 11, 2021 · Last updated Jun 15, 2021 - 3:44 PM

I believe that’s correct but someone with more authority should prob answer that definitively :smiley:\ \ However, we have had the philisophical discussion that the same image could be used multiple times in a course, and the alt text may need to be different as a result of that. \ \ As always in the accessibility world, one question answered, three more unearthed!

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Oct 5, 2021

Hello [Dan Loury](mention:31f5cd86-8d94-43f7-9624-2dae7bd58299 "/u/dloury/") - I am just following up on this issue. In June you mentioned there were some short term improvements coming to help with this issue. Do you have any updates on those improvements? \ \ The issues/conversations that [Krista Greear](mention:6db744af-772a-4731-9ed5-6f1ba2d84f2b "/u/greeark%40uw.edu/") shared from Instructure were helpful to understand the limitations of how they handle alt text. That said - I wonder if there is a way around that even with the limitations. \ \ Right now Ally only changes the actual HTML (to insert the alt text) when a user is actually editing a page. If you add alt text through the files area or accessibility report, then Ally doesn’t change the HTML - it just “injects” the alt text on the HTML page in a way that is not carried forward when the content is copied. I guess my question is why can’t Ally modify the HTML on a page that has that image so that the work will persist? I assume you already have the access to do so (or it could be granted), it seems like it would be technically possible to add that alt text into the HTML wherever it is found. Is that something that could be considered?

- Permalink

Dan Loury · Oct 8, 2021

Hi [Christopher Philips](mention:4cec3b4c-3891-4869-acb5-67c171723491 "/u/cphilips/") - no immediate updates to share related to this particular issue. It’s still on our backlog to review. Let me connect with our engineering team to get a better sense of what the specific limitation is here.

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Oct 29, 2021

Hey [Dan Loury](mention:31f5cd86-8d94-43f7-9624-2dae7bd58299 "/u/dloury/") - any word from the engineering team on this limitation?

- Permalink

Jessica Campusano · Dec 10, 2021 · Last updated Dec 10, 2021 - 3:00 PM

[Dan Loury](mention:31f5cd86-8d94-43f7-9624-2dae7bd58299 "/u/dloury/") [Krista Greear](mention:6db744af-772a-4731-9ed5-6f1ba2d84f2b "/u/greeark%40uw.edu/") I recall hearing at the roadmap session that there is possibly a fix for this coming soon. Was that correct?

- Permalink

Krista Greear · Jan 4, 2022

[Dan Loury](mention:31f5cd86-8d94-43f7-9624-2dae7bd58299 "/u/dloury/") will need to answer this question, [Jessica Campusano](mention:c9107a8d-de82-4526-a936-59b8a7fca8ab "/u/jessicagiraldo/"). I don’t have any updated info.

- Permalink

Dan Loury · Jan 5, 2022

Hi [Jessica Campusano](mention:c9107a8d-de82-4526-a936-59b8a7fca8ab "/u/jessicagiraldo/") , this is indeed on our roadmap! It’s currently slotted for review in Q1 ‘22. As we work through the details we’ll provide greater clarity on the timeline. Thanks for the question!

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Oct 12, 2022

There is now an official idea for this issue in the Anthology Idea community. For anyone interested, you can vote for it at [Make the alternative text in images permanent, or notify if the text is permanent or temporary](https://anthology-teachingandlearning.ideas.aha.io/ideas/ALLY-I-13).

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

I was hoping to see something on this issue on the road map today, but it looks like it is still in the “Researching” status. There discussions on this going back to at least 2017: \ [Where is the alt text stored, if not in the HTML?](https://usergroup.ally.ac/s/ally/?contentId=3999)\ \ See also [Fixing Alt Text in Canvas Through Ally](https://usergroup.ally.ac/s/discussion/?contentId=39234). There are competitors doing this - so I’m pretty sure it isn’t a technical issue, seems like it just isn’t a priority to get fixed. \ \ If the overall issue isn’t able to be fixed - could there at least be a warning to users to let them know that the alt text improvements they are making will only apply to the current course and won’t be carried over [Ivan Herrera](mention:578e8384-2ba6-464b-90b7-633e1ec3b6c4 "/u/ivan_herrera/") [Chris Aldin](mention:1e21f988-ebd0-4d7e-bae1-78ce646d5f9c "/u/caldin/") [Anne-Sophie De Baets](mention:ff1819ce-766e-46fd-980b-d28698c40ddb "/u/ade+baets/") ?

- Permalink

David Schlater · Feb 27, 2023

I'm still unclear under which scenarios alt text does not carry forward. Course copy done by an Admin? Import course content from an existing course, done by an instructor? Is this only issue when a person creates an export package as a file, then imports that file back into Canvas?

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

Good question [David Schlater](mention:957feb5b-02ef-412c-87c2-217af0c32760 "/u/davids/") - it definitely is not intuitive. They did provide this [Effectively Add and Preserve Alternative Descriptions for Images for Canvas document](https://usergroup.ally.ac/file/file/download?guid=5d229f37-895b-4f5d-b65e-e3a59b29ba99) back in 2021 which provides some clarity, but I don’t think has ever been added to the official documentation. \ \ My understanding is that it depends both on how the alt text was added to an image (i.e. on a page, in files section, through course report) AND on how it is copied forward - some additional clarity would definitely be helpful.

- Permalink

David Schlater · Feb 27, 2023

I hope this works as it was what all our instructors do:![Import - copy from course on server](file-guid:3562858e-9bbe-484f-8c39-2059c6c474be "image.png")

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

That is the method we use as well and I do know for certain that that method does work for alt text when the alt text is added directly on a page, but does NOT work when the alt text is added through the Course Accessibility Report or through the Files area.

- Permalink

David Schlater · Feb 28, 2023

I did a real-world test and the results were somewhat positive. I created a Canvas course with 5 images in different locations (directly added to a module, on a page, only in the files area, in a discussion) then added alt tags with Ally for each where they were located, fixing one via files an another from the Ally course report - all as an instructor might do. Next I used the Import function to copy this existing course content into a blank shell (like instructors here do) and the Course Copy function as only admins can at our school. Finally I created an export file which I downloaded, and imported that file into a blank course shell. Waited for Ally to catch up and scan… The first two courses had 100% perfect Ally scores just like the original. All fixes transferred. The last, where I created an imscc Export File, then re-uploaded that file into a blank course did not work perfectly - the images on the Page and in Discussion (also a page of sorts) were still fixed, but the image on the module, in the file area only and the one fixed via the Ally Course report (also just in files) did not carry over. For us this is positive since creating export files is not a process we encourage for moving course content around. I would be interested to have others test and report back.

- Permalink

Chris Aldin · Feb 28, 2023

Thanks Christopher, David for the renewed dialogue around this one. It is true that this has moved up and down the roadmap over the years and I recognize the frustration that causes. The status in the Idea Exchange (Researching) reflects the current prioritization, as we’ve pushed this back into the backlog for the short term to focus on re-examining this. There is a bit of a mix between technical requirements and overall prioritization here, but at the end of the day we have looked at a few solutions that don’t quite fully solve the problem. That is not to say we are not going to pull this back in as we go forward. There are still additional options we are pursuing as part of the current research depending on feasibility and user impact, including where it may make sense for warnings, etc. Appreciating your point on further clarity, this also isn’t to say that there aren’t some additional steps we can take including looking at surfacing additional documentation in places that help create awareness of what happens in these scenarios. We will continue looking for documentation opportunities while we continue the solution research and as soon as we can bring this back into the roadmap discussions, or perhaps do a deeper dive on an Office Hours, we’ll do so.

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Mar 9, 2023

Hey [David Schlater](mention:957feb5b-02ef-412c-87c2-217af0c32760 "/u/davids/") - I was excited to read your message and hoping that maybe Ally accidentally fixed the issue! Alas - no such luck. I created a course with 2 pages that contained an image- I added alt text to one through Ally on the page and for the other one I aded to the alt text through the Course Accessibility Report. \ \ I think created a new, blank course and imported the first one through the “Import Course Content” function. The alt text from the image added through Ally on the page came over, the alt text added through the Course Accessibility Report did not. Does that sound like the same process you are using? If so, I would be delighted if there were a way we could get it to work. [Chris Aldin](mention:9b3facf2-7581-4436-8cfb-2d46781fb292 "/u/chris.aldin%40anthology.com/") - thank you for the update on this. It seems like you are consider this a feature enhancement rather than a bug. At this point, I’m baffled that the “feature” to not delete alt text when a course is copied is being de-prioritized again. \ \ Given that - it would be a big deal if you could prioritize some kind of warning language, it seems like that wouldn’t take much time. Or if it is something that just isn’t going to get fixed, a way for us to turn off the ability for users to add alt text through the course accessibility report so those efforts don’t continue to be wasted.

- Permalink

Chris Aldin · Mar 9, 2023

[Christopher Philips](mention:4cec3b4c-3891-4869-acb5-67c171723491 "/u/cphilips/") I appreciate the follow-up here as well as your feedback. It is a fair statement that the balance we’ve wrestled with here (going back into the “roadmap years”) has felt like a bug at times and a feature in others, but in truth I consider this a challenge that has yet to be solved. We are considering all of the options as part of re-examining this, including the warning and the idea around a potential configuration to just remove the ability in the CAR. We are also continuing to look at ways to find a solution to the underlying problem with the alt text carrying over itself, but I hear and understand your point on being able to do something rather than continuing to fall back. If we can identify ways that we can do something in the short term we’ll bring this into the fold in a way that we can work on an actionable solution as opposed to just simply placing it back into the roadmap. I hope this helps, but we’ll make sure this conversation continues to keep these points at the forefront of the discussion.

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Mar 10, 2023

Thanks so much for the ongoing conversation [Chris Aldin](mention:9b3facf2-7581-4436-8cfb-2d46781fb292 "/u/chris.aldin%40anthology.com/") - much appreciated.

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Mar 13, 2023

For anyone following this conversation, I have some big updates in how I understand this issue from the testing that [David Schlater](mention:957feb5b-02ef-412c-87c2-217af0c32760 "/u/davids/") did and some comments from [Chris Aldin](mention:9b3facf2-7581-4436-8cfb-2d46781fb292 "/u/chris.aldin%40anthology.com/") in office hours today. \ \ First - I have tested this (and had other people test this) multiple times over the past few years, but apparently was just never patient enough to wait long enough to see the alt text come over from Ally for images when the alt text is added through the course accessibility report. I’m not sure I understand 100% , but once you copy a Canvas course there seems to be 3 phases of Ally updating: 1. an initial first phase where all content shows as inaccessible (Immediate), 2. Ally recognized alt text added and stored in the page HTML (within a few minutes) , and 3. Ally recognizes Alt text stored in Ally (15 minutes to a half hour?) . Knowing that this works the way it does - this makes the current solution much more workable. In short, the work that are faculty are doing for files that are in use (used on a page) is not wasted and does carry forward when a course is copied. I apologize for my confusion and sending anyone in the wrong direction. \ \ There is still potentially an issue of faculty losing alt text on images that are not in use in a course - but that loss feels much more reasonable and it makes sense that it would be difficult to address. Ideally the alt text added through the Course Accessibility tool would be written into the HTML, but we can definitely live with the current situation - much appreciated!

- Permalink

Christopher Philips · Jun 25, 2024

[Chris Aldin](mention:9b3facf2-7581-4436-8cfb-2d46781fb292 "/u/chris.aldin%40anthology.com/") and [Ivan Herrera](mention:578e8384-2ba6-464b-90b7-633e1ec3b6c4 "/u/ivan_herrera/") - I think I just found another issue related to this longstanding problem (05404833). When you add alt text to an image through the course accessibility report, when you add that image to a page - the green icon shows next to the published page showing the image has alt text, but when a user edits the page - the Ally WYSIWYG checker indicates that the image does not have alt text. In addition - in the course accessibility report, the page shows as not having alt text - super inconsistent for users. \ \ Any update to addressing this longstanding issue?

- Permalink

Ivan Herrera · Jun 25, 2024

dear [Christopher Philips](mention:4cec3b4c-3891-4869-acb5-67c171723491 "/u/cphilips/") \ \ Apologies for the inconvenience. Let us review the ticket information from our support team, assess the issue, and we will get back to you as soon as we can. \ \ Regards,\ \ Ivan

- Permalink

April Robbs · Jan 24, 2025

[@Chris Aldin](https://usergroup.ally.ac/u/chris.aldin%40anthology.com/) and [@Ivan Herrera](https://usergroup.ally.ac/u/ivan_herrera/) are there any updates to the issue with alt text copying over in Canvas? Our faculty are frustrated and saying that it is not copying over. I will have to get some more details on how they are adding the alt text.

Blackboard Ally User Group Terms of Use · Blackboard Privacy · Powered by HumHub

Choose language:

Christopher Philips

Christopher Philips · Jun 9, 2021

Krista Greear · Jun 11, 2021

Default Alt-Text on Uploaded Images

Christopher Philips · Jun 11, 2021

Krista Greear · Jun 11, 2021 · Last updated Jun 15, 2021 - 3:44 PM

Christopher Philips · Oct 5, 2021

Dan Loury · Oct 8, 2021

Christopher Philips · Oct 29, 2021

Jessica Campusano · Dec 10, 2021 · Last updated Dec 10, 2021 - 3:00 PM

Krista Greear · Jan 4, 2022

Dan Loury · Jan 5, 2022

Christopher Philips · Oct 12, 2022

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

Discussion - Ally User Group

David Schlater · Feb 27, 2023

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

David Schlater · Feb 27, 2023

Christopher Philips · Feb 27, 2023

David Schlater · Feb 28, 2023

Chris Aldin · Feb 28, 2023

Christopher Philips · Mar 9, 2023

Chris Aldin · Mar 9, 2023

Christopher Philips · Mar 10, 2023

Christopher Philips · Mar 13, 2023

Christopher Philips · Jun 25, 2024

Ivan Herrera · Jun 25, 2024

April Robbs · Jan 24, 2025

Chris Aldin · Jan 31, 2025

Hidden Gallery